Sports Podcast

The ReCap by Laina Stebbins: 7.11.18 Podcast by HWTP Sports Talk

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David is joined this week by New York Times reporter and author Karen Crouse to have a discussion about sexism in sports, and Crouse’s article, "At Wimbledon, Married Women are Still 'Mrs.'" Later in the show, Jesse Dougherty of the Washington Post comes on to discuss a college basketball corruption case that now involves the University of Maryland.

NYT’s Karen Crouse on sexist traditions in sports

Karen Crouse covers sports for the New York Times. She is also the author of “Norwich: One Tiny Vermont Town's Secret to Happiness and Excellence.”

One of her latest articles for the Times explores Wimbledon’s apparent fixation on the marital status of female players, with the case study being Serena Williams – who is now being referred to as “Mrs. Williams” by chair umpires, after getting married last year but not taking Alexis Ohanian’s last name.

“If you are a woman competing at Wimbledon, you are either a ‘Miss’ if you are single, or you are a ‘Mrs.’ if you are married,” Crouse says.

“But when you have the case of someone like Serena, who is recently married but has not taken her husband's name, they just call her ‘Mrs. Williams’ – so it makes it sound as if she is married to her father.”

This particular way of addressing players according to their marital status does not extend to men, however.

“If you are Roger Federer – [who is] married with four children – you are simply ‘Federer,’” Crouse says. “So, the married men do not have the courtesy title in front of their names.”

Is this just a case of the British being overly proper and fond of tradition, or something more malicious?

“I’ve heard the ‘tradition’ side of it as it relates to Augusta National,” says Crouse, who also covers golf for the Times. “I'm getting to the point where when I hear the word 'tradition,' it's feels like it's synonymous for sexism or prejudice. I just don’t buy it.”

She points to the fact that women at Wimbledon have had equal pay for 11 years now.

“They've been able to get past…the idea that women don't need money because they're married to men who make the money,” Crouse says. “They've gotten over that tradition, so maybe it's time for them to recognize women as their own people, and not who they are married to or…whether they're married or single.”

“It has the impression, at least, that you just see women as appendages of men,” she says.

Crouse says that in an over-600-page compendium about Wimbledon, you can find the detailed marital history of every semifinalist and finalist on the women’s side, both singles and doubles: “It has the date of when you were married, the place, and the full name of your husband,” Crouse says.

“That's how I found out that Serena's husband, Alexis Ohanian, his middle name is Kerry because this was listed in the Compendium. It is so crazy.

“None of this is done on the men's side,” she says, adding: “If you're going to have this kind of information and the women are going to be recognized in terms of their relationships, you should do the same for the men.”

WaPo’s Jesse Dougherty on college basketball corruption

Jesse Dougherty is a staff writer at Washington Post who covers college sports and University of Maryland athletics. He speaks with David about a developing story that now involves both of his beats.

An FBI investigation into corruption in college basketball has now led to more subpoenas for the University of Maryland, even after the University handed over records after being initially subpoenaed in March.

The new subpoenas request information regarding one unnamed former player at Maryland, the team’s assistant coach, and a recruit who ultimately attended Kansas.

“The company line from everyone is that ‘this happens everywhere.’ Of course, that's not entirely the case,” Dougherty says.

“There are over 300 schools in college basketball, so it can't be everywhere – but I don't think any school’s really in the clear, even if the trials are looming.”

Back in March, it was reported that Diamond Stone, a former Maryland player, was implicated in improper payments that were meant to steer him to sign with sports agency ASM after college.

“He was one of a long list of players that was sort of roped into this whole federal investigation,” Dougherty says.

When that happened, Maryland announced that they were conducting an internal investigation. “Given the fact that...Maryland was looking into some matters on their own front…it didn't seem like Maryland was totally in the clear of this kind of thing,” he says.

The March subpoena, in part, requested communication records between Maryland employees and Christian Dawkins. According to the Washington Post: “Dawkins is facing charges, including wire fraud, under accusations he arranged payments for the families of several top recruits to ensure they attended certain schools and eventually signed with preferred agents and financial advisers.”

The initial subpoenas were then followed up, less than two weeks ago, with more that request additional information regarding communications with another player.

So far, the University of Maryland’s reaction to the new subpoenas has been “pretty close to the chest,” Dougherty says, but “I can’t imagine Maryland’s feeling great about that.

“It's not something you want connected to your program. And [with] about a dozen now that have been implicated or sort of tied into this…morale can't be a hundred percent, that's for sure.”

Since there are few connections between Maryland and Silvio D'Souza, the recruit who ended up attending Kansas, Dougherty says it's “not totally surprising to see Maryland at least come up in a subpoena” – although, he and David agree that the case might not necessarily track back to Maryland.

“It could just be that they're trying to gather more information…I think Maryland’s roped in just by association in this,” Dougherty says. “They’re sort of tangentially connected to the Silvio case. And as you said, if there is some glass half-full, it could be that – that it's not actually going to crack down on [Maryland], but just sort of an information gathering for a trial that could unfold in October.”

Until then, “things are going to bubble to the surface, and it’s going to be a fun thing to follow and report on,” says Dougherty.

Listen to the entirety of both conversations below.

The ReCap by Laina Stebbins: 6.27.18 Podcast by HWTP Sports Talk

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Dr. Jaime Schultz

“First of all, I think what's important to do is to separate transgender or transitioned athletes from athletes who have differences of sex development, or what we might call intersex. So these are two different situations, but what ties them together is testosterone.”

The show this week features an insightful interview with Dr. Jaime Schultz, an associate professor of Kinesiology at Pennsylvania State University who specializes in the history of women's sports. Schultz joins HWTP Sports Talk and speaks with David about her reporting on a new sports policy that appears to discriminate against female athletes with hyperandrogenism – including South African track star Caster Semenya – as well as other testosterone-related sports policies that have state-by-state implications for transgender athletes.

For two young transgender girls (who are also state champs), the girls’ club is not welcoming

David starts the discussion with the case of two 16-year-old transgender athletes who made national headlines this month.  Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood are track and field stars in their state of Connecticut, recently coming in 1st and 2nd place at the state girls’ championship, respectively. They were both assigned male at birth, but live as females and are undergoing hormone therapy for their bodies to reflect this.

Miller and Yearwood have been able to officially compete as girls because Connecticut’s governing body of interscholastic sports enables students to participate in athletics based on their gender identity. In their case, though this rule has affirmed their gender identities by allowing their participation in the girls’ division, it has also opened up Miller and Yearwood to a floodgate of criticism from competitors and parents who see them as having an unfair physical advantage over other (cisgender) female athletes.

Critics believe that since Miller and Yearwood were born into male bodies, they should be competing in sports competitions for males. This is essentially based on the concept that boys naturally possess much higher levels of testosterone than girls, therefore giving any male-born person a physical advantage over females.

Some have even begun petitioning the state to change its current rules, so Miller and Yearwood would presumably have to compete against boys or not compete at all.

“For critics who question their place in girls’ sport...based on your philosophy and where you stand on what sport should be for, that changes the tenor of our discussion,” Schultz says.

“It’s a question of science, and it’s also a question of identity, and it all just gets really complicated.”

Further complicating things: ”Different states have different regulations for transgender athletes,” she adds.

For a transgender boy at the top of his high school wrestling career, the boys’ club was off-limits

Whereas rules in Connecticut allow students to participate in sports based on their gender identity, rules in Texas are quite the opposite. In Texas, students are required to compete as the sex stamped on their birth certificate.

Schultz brought up the case of Mack Beggs, a 17-year-old star wrestler in Texas who has been on the receiving end of another testosterone-related controversy.

Beggs was born biologically female, but lives as a male and began taking testosterone treatments in 2015. He fell in love with wrestling, and was determined to be at the top of his sport in high school.  But when Beggs requested to compete with other boys, the state said no.

“Beggs wanted to compete as a boy…but Texas said, you can’t do that, you have to compete as a girl because that’s what it says on your birth certificate,” Schultz says.

Beggs was ordered to continue competing as a girl, and last year became the first transgender participant to win a Class 6A girls’ state championship in Texas high school wrestling.

But being forced to compete as a female regardless of his male gender identity made his very existence in the division an extremely contentious issue. He often got booed, people said hurtful things to and about him, he developed a reputation, and he became the (divisive) talk of the town.

Beggs was even at one point charged with allegations of doping because he was taking synthetic testosterone for his hormone treatments, Schultz says, although it was prescribed by his doctor and his school district had determined his testosterone to be well below the allowed level.

“You can see how Texas sort of hamstrung itself by these rules,” Schultz says. “Nobody is breaking the rules here. They are competing in line with what the state organization has said who can compete...so it might seem unfair, but nobody's breaking the rules,” she says.

. . .

Historically, athletic events have always been split into the two main categories of men’s sports and women’s sports.  As a result, an athlete’s eligibility to compete in such events becomes directly related to their apparent ability to fit neatly into either of the two categories (male or female).  But what happens when not everyone can fit so neatly into one of those boxes, even when they desperately would like to so they can keep playing their professional sport?

Caster Semenya and defining “femaleness” in sports

Caster Semenya is a two-time Olympic champion, three-time world champion, and a track and field hero in her home country of South Africa. But because of the way athletic institutions define and measure the concept of “maleness” as a lack of “femaleness,” a new policy has been slated for implementation later this year that could cut Semenya’s astonishingly successful running career short.

Semenya is a woman with a condition called hyperandrogenism, which means she has an abnormally high level of testosterone. As a result, Semenya has been subjected to harsh treatment, including medical “gender tests” and stigma brought on by speculation about her sexual characteristics and reproductive organs.

“This is kind of the direction that most sports organizations are headed...that we're using testosterone levels as a way to define who can compete as a woman. So it's defining femaleness,” Schultz says.

“Now, for men, it doesn't much matter to them really. Men naturally have a much more expansive range of testosterone.”

The IAAF has been using testosterone as a measure to verify female athletes’ eligibility since the 1980s, apparently managing instances of hyperandrogenism and intersex athletes quietly on a case-by-case basis for decades before ever establishing it as policy. Then, in 2011, the IAAF announced an upper limit for testosterone levels.

A court case in 2015 had that policy suspended for about two years, after it was ruled that there was not yet enough evidence to prove that additional testosterone gave women a performance advantage in sports. Earlier this year, however, that evidence was submitted – and the court apparently found it quite compelling.

IAAF regulations: discrimination in the pursuit of fairness?

In a decision that Semenya has called “unlawful” and said she plans to fight, the Court of Arbitration for Sport recently ruled that starting in November 2018, the new policy on hyperandrogenism will indeed be enforced for women who race in track events from 400 meters up to the mile. This would include Semenya, who especially excels in the women’s 800 and 1,500.

The regulations could very well result in female runners who exhibit naturally high testosterone levels being forced to either change events entirely, compete against men, take hormone-suppressing medication, or even undergo surgery if they want to continue competing against women.

Meanwhile, the idea that there might be a gendered double standard remains on the table when it comes to how women are treated in sports; little attention appears to be paid to men with low testosterone or trans male athletes competing in men’s events, and men are not screened for high levels of naturally-occurring testosterone, as women now are. This has led many to believe that some existing policies, including that of the IAAF, are discriminatory against women.

Through something called a therapeutic use exemption, Schultz says, “if [men] have a documented condition that gives them low testosterone, they can supplement” their testosterone with synthetic testosterone.

“Women don't have that same option,” Schultz says. “If a woman falls below the reference range for testosterone, she doesn't have that same opportunity to supplement her testosterone.”

In terms of weighing the scientific and ethical rationales for regulating women with hyperandrogenism in elite sports, a scientific article published in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism in 2015 came to this conclusion:

“Regulating women with clinical and biological hyperandrogenism is an invitation to criticism because biological parameters of sex are not neatly divided into only two categories in the real world. It is, however, the responsibility of the sports-governing bodies to do their best to guarantee a level playing field to all athletes.”

The article goes on to recommend that sports-governing bodies should, at the very least, formulate policies that are more sensitive toward possible cases of hyperandrogenism. This could include a heightened prioritization of privacy, informed consent, and the provision of psychological support for athletes with a disorder of sex development.

As Schultz writes in her story – unless this decision from IAAF changes or is somehow overturned – “We may be left with a sport without Caster Semenya, or at least the same Caster Semenya who continues to set new standards of excellence in women’s track and field.”

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Listen to the full conversation below, and read Schultz’s article for The Conversation here.

The ReCap by Laina Stebbins: 6.13.18 Podcast by HWTP Sports Talk

Luther Wright with former NBA commissioner David Stern

Luther Wright with former NBA commissioner David Stern

This week, David is joined by Amy Ellis Nutt of The Washington Post to discuss her reporting on rising suicide rates across the country, particularly those of athletes. Author and game fixing expert Brian Tuohy also speaks with David about newly-legalized sports betting, and some potentially unintended consequences it may have as it becomes more widely available across the country.

Amy Ellis Nutt on rising suicide rates, links between athlete injuries and mental disorders (36:20)

 Amy Ellis Nutt covers neuroscience and mental health for The Washington Post. In the aftermath of recent high-profile deaths by suicide, including Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain, Nutt joins David for a timely and important discussion. Topics include Nutt’s reporting on rising national suicide rates, the significance of mental illness as a factor, and how athletes can be uniquely vulnerable to both.

A growing national crisis

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In her most recent article, Nutt reports on details from a new CDC report revealing that suicide rates in the U.S. increased between 1999 and 2016. This was true in all but one state, held for variables including age, gender, race and ethnicity.

In 2016, the number of reported suicides in the U.S. more than doubled the number of homicides, Nutt writes.

Why is America continuing to see a troubling upswing in suicide rates? According to Nutt, a combination of factors are at play – with undiagnosed mental illness being a significant one.

Nutt says there are sadly many people who tragically take their own lives, with their undiagnosed mental disorder(s) only being discovered after it is too late.

“When you go back and do a psychological autopsy on these people, you discover they have all the signs of mental illness, but they haven’t been seen,” she says.

This is often due to Americans not having access to proper care and/or not being able to afford treatment, Nutt says, which by themselves have a lot to do with driving numbers of suicides up.

“Half the counties in the United States do not have a psychiatrist, psychologist or social worker, which is really stunning,” Nutt says.

Add to this a prominent social stigma surrounding mental illness, and it becomes apparent why so many Americans do not receive the treatment they may desperately need – whether they know they need it or not.

Why athletes are especially vulnerable

Nutt, speaking to her experience as a former sports reporter, says that athletes tend to have a harder time dealing with issues of mental and emotional health in general.

Often, this can largely be attributed to the significant amount of pressure and scrutiny professional athletes are expected to shoulder gracefully – while continuing to perform at a top level and maintain a good public image simultaneously.

It’s easy for us to think of pro athletes as being pampered because of their lifestyle, Nutt says, but in reality we might be failing to recognize classic signs of mental illness.

She talks about the story of former NBA player Luther Wright, who had a promising but ultimately short stint in professional basketball. His career was cut short after less than a year for reasons including a struggle with mental illness.

Nutt recalls what Wright said during a revealing interview in 2015, in which he spoke about the pressures of being a pro athlete: “He said as an athlete, you're desperate to provide for your family. And especially when you finally reach that professional level, you just might not feel you have a luxury to divulge that you're having a mental health issue,” Nutt says.

“If you're even able to recognize it yourself, it's not something you want to talk about” because of the social stigma and unwanted public attention, she adds.

On top of that: “Athletes are a special breed, they’re perfectionists. Everything about the life of an athlete is measurable…so the standards by which athletes measure themselves are very exacting,” Nutt says.

In this way, it becomes all-too easy for athletes to feel like they are failing if they don't meet certain benchmarks or measure up in a particular way. This perfectionism can lead to athletes playing down or hiding parts of their life they deem damaging to their career, including injuries.

The links between athlete injuries and mental health

David brings up the death of NFL hall of famer Junior Seau, who took his own life in 2012. Seau confided in those close to him about the many concussions he had suffered, but went to lengths to hide them from the public during his 20-year career. Not once was he even formally diagnosed with a concussion. Upon his death, Seau was discovered to have CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy), a degenerative brain disease found in athletes and others with a history of repeated head trauma.

As described by this NPR article, Seau’s death brought the issue of football-related concussions to the forefront of a national conversation – but six years later, are professional and collegiate teams doing enough to mitigate these risks today?

“I’m not sure they are,” Nutt says.

“Only about 40 percent of Division 1 schools actually have a licensed full-time mental health practitioner,” she tells HWTP Sports Talk. “That, to me, is kind of stunning when you consider the particular problems of athletes.”

An all-too common occurrence for pro football players, repeated hits to the skull are now widely known to pave the way to early-onset dementia, Nutt says.

However, “what a lot of people don't know is that any kind of head trauma increases the risk of developing a mental disorder – sometimes as much as 400 percent.”

In other words, dementia, CTE and cognitive loss aren’t the only potential consequences of repeated head trauma. Mental illnesses can also develop as a result.

“Things like depression, anxiety, and even schizophrenia – those are things that can happen from repeated blows to the head,” Nutt says.

Nutt also points to a study in which researchers examined the injury experience of elite athletes: “Having an injury – these researchers likened [that experience] to a grief process,” she tells David.

The study additionally found that with regard to depression and suicide, “about 10 to 20 percent of elite athletes who suffer an injury really warrant a clinical intervention,” according to Nutt.

“It’s easy to be blithe about it, but when that is your life and you injure something...and you might not be the person you were, or you might have to retire early – then it’s devastating, if that’s been your whole life and it’s taken away from you,” she says.

If you or someone you know is in suicidal crisis or emotional distress, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK [8255] or text HOME to 741741 for help.

Brian Tuohy on sports gambling (20:00)

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Last month, the world of sports celebrated a long-awaited ruling from the Supreme Court. The 6-3 decision lifted a federal ban on sports gambling, essentially allowing it to transition from an underground practice (with the exception of Nevada) to a legal, above-ground enterprise that states can choose how to regulate.

Since the May ruling, both New Jersey and Delaware have instituted full-scale legalized sports betting. New Jersey’s began Thursday, with large crowds convening at racetracks to celebrate and place their first bets.

Brian Tuohy is a game fixing expert and author, notably of “The Fix Is In.” He joined David to discuss the potential pros and cons of the pastime’s newly-legalized status, and offer his thoughts on what the future may hold.

“I think overall, it’s a good thing,” Tuohy tells David. “If people want to do it...they should be allowed to do it. Then you can regulate it, then you can tax it, then you can have some sort of oversight on it.”

Another positive, according to Tuohy: before the Supreme Court ruling, “everything outside of Las Vegas and Nevada was basically illegal and was controlled mostly by organized crime.

“The more it's legalized, the more you take it out of organized crime’s hand – and the more, hopefully, you can regulate it,” he says.

Pennsylvania, West Virginia and Mississippi are the next few states in line to likely implement sports betting on a full scale in the near future. Legislation geared toward this goal has also been introduced, but not yet passed, in 15 additional states. Click here to follow ESPN’s state-by-state sports betting bill tracker.

Tuohy adds that not all consequences of legalizing sports gambling will be positive.

“On the downside, what I'm afraid is going to happen, at least at first – I think the sports media is going to get carried away with the gambling end of it,” he says.

Tuohy predicts that, to the dismay of the average sports fan, a large portion of sports coverage – including online articles – will likely begin slanting heavily toward this angle as betting becomes more widely available.

“I'm afraid that sports coverage...it's all going to become about gambling and about the betting line,” Tuohy says, “and I think it might get overwhelming for the casual fan who isn't gonna gamble. It just might be too in people's faces.”

“I think they're going to believe that the gambling fan is the engaged fan, and the more they can talk or write about gambling and the sports betting end of things, the more clicks they're going to get,” he adds.

“I think it's going to be a constant loop.”

As for modern-day figures like Jimmy “The Greek” Snyder, a popular commentator and gambler on “The NFL Today” in the 1980s largely known for bringing sports gambling into the mainstream: “I think every show's going to have a guy like a Jimmy The Greek,” Tuohy says.

“What I think's going to be the problem is that they’re not going to vet any of these guys,” he continues. “They're going to find somebody on Twitter, or who has some sort of established reputation – be it good or bad, it's not going to matter – there’s gonna be somebody who's established in the gambling industry and they're going to make them a permanent panel member. And you're going to hear nonstop about, again, the gambling end of sports.”

“In the end I still think it's a good thing,” Tuohy says, “but I'm afraid the way the media is going to treat it is going to be a bad thing.”

As for the crowd that has already been gambling in the underbelly – “I don’t think it’s going away anytime soon,” he tells David.

Tuohy explains that a big reason is due to the fact that, unlike in illegal gambling, the major sports books are corporate-owned entities that do not accept huge wagers. “Especially from guys that they believe are sharp, good gamblers,” Tuohy adds.

“So, I think the underground is still going to exist because the illegal sports gambling industry is going to still take those big bets,” he says.

Furthermore, gamblers who win big money from underground bets don’t have to worry about paying taxes on what they win.

In Las Vegas, “you win over 10 grand, you're instantly taxed on it – whereas if you win it with Vinnie, you know, out on the corner, you don't have to.

“So even though it's going to be legalized...there's still going to be this illegal industry that exists, because they can get around certain things that proper sports books won't deal with, and the taxes and fees that they won’t to have to pay,” Tuohy says.

Listen to the whole conversation below.

 

The ReCap by Laina Stebbins: 6.6.18 Podcast by HWTP Sports Talk

NFL Network's Jeffri Chadiha

NFL Network's Jeffri Chadiha

David is joined by NFL Network’s Jeffri Chadiha to talk about Bobby Kennedy and Rosey Grier on the 50th anniversary of RFK’s assassination. Later, New York Times reporter and author Joe Drape joins the show to break down a little league baseball bat scandal and give his take on Justify’s upcoming Triple Crown attempt.

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NFL senior writer Jeffri Chadiha on “Rosey & Bobby”

June 6, 1968 was a day that shocked the country and the world – and left a national wound that we are still assessing to this day. After his victory speech following the California primaries, Robert F. Kennedy, the beloved activist and the leading Democratic candidate for president, was assassinated in Los Angeles.

Wednesday marked the 50 year anniversary of RFK’s sudden and tragic death. David is joined by award-winning writer Jeffri Chadiha to discuss Chadiha’s compelling piece for NFL.com about the relationship between Robert “Bobby” Kennedy and NFL star Roosevelt “Rosey” Grier. The night of the assassination, Grier was guarding the Senator’s wife, Ethel Kennedy.

Chadiha says that everything in Grier’s life had changed after he was asked to be a part of Kennedy’s presidential campaign in 1968.

“Bobby Kennedy really loved people, and he and Rosey Grier had that in common from the start...It was a natural bond that they created,” Chadiha says. The two also had football in common; like Grier, Kennedy was also a former football player at Harvard.

“Rosey Grier was probably at some point going to do something to help people, to help humanity, because that’s in his soul,” Chadiha says, but “in so many ways, Bobby Kennedy taught Rosey Grier about how to...not just love people, but how to help people.”

“He wanted to change the world, but he ended up changing Rosey Grier in the process.”

Kennedy was well-known and beloved for his fervent social justice advocacy. He confronted issues that America still grapples with today, including economic equality, racial injustice and immigration.

“The world was divided, the country was divided back then, and I think Rosey felt like [Kennedy] was the person who was going to change that,” Chadiha says.

Chadiha goes on to talk more about the long-lasting impact Kennedy’s life, friendship, and death had on Grier, and how it changed the trajectory of his life and career post-1968.

Read Chadiha’s full piece on NFL.com, "Rosey & Bobby,” here.

NYT writer Joe Drape on youth batting, sports betting

This season’s new standards for youth baseball equipment came with a big price tag, and are being met with outrage and frustration from young players and their parents.

Reporter and author Joe Drape writes about the controversial new standards in his latest New York Times article, “New Rules for Bats Leave Youth Baseball Parents With the Bill.” He talks with David about the updated standards, how they are being received, and the potential consequences of raising the price of youth sports.

Back in the day, David points out, all you needed to play baseball was a bat, a ball or two, and a street or field to play on. “It wasn't something that was costing parents hundreds of almost thousands of dollars to keep kids competing,” he says.

So, what gives?

“They put in, like, OSHA standards of how the bat is built and what effect there would be,” Drape says. But not for safety reasons, as one might presume.

“USA Baseball…[they] didn't think it was competitive enough,” Drape says. The new models apparently make good hits – and thus, home runs – harder to come by.

The approved bats, stamped with the USA Baseball logo, can range from $45 to $350. Drape’s article also reports that retailers are having a hard time keeping them in stock.

“Team sports has definitely become an economic divide,” Drape says. “There's no doubt, when you raise prices like that and make the barrier to entry about bucks, that you're discriminating against people.”

Drape adds that when team sports have this monetary barrier to entry, lower-income children are only able to participate if they can already demonstrate a high level of ability; whereas for children whose families can afford the costs, their talent level is not a factor in their inclusion.

It’s all about the money.

“They basically have sold sports to the folks who can afford it,” Drape says. “Doesn't mean they're the most gifted.”

In the last part of his and David’s discussion, Drape also weighs in on the upcoming potential for Justify to win the Triple Crown at the Belmont Stakes.

To catch the whole conversation, listen to the full show below.